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 Post subject: WARNING - ISOCYANATES
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:05 am 
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I have managed to poison myself with 2 K paint. I have been spraying 2K on and off for the last ten years. Back then both my Dad and I were told by the guy at the spray shop that if you are painting only the odd time out side you will be ok with a 3m throw away spray mask. I have probably sprayed 6 cars worth over 10 years. The last job I did was paint the boot and floor pans out side on a full stripped shell. It took less than 45min. In the past I have had not even feel ill after painting, no chestiness, cough or anything and I didn't have any problems while spraying, so I never changed my habbit.
24hours later I had the runs and felt sick and dizzy, a bit like the flu. This slowly went after 3 days, but I felt dizzy. 1 month later I had another similar attack, even without any paint exposure and it took 3 weeks for my balance to return. This happened again 1 month later and I had 7 weeks off work, dizziness, balance issues, headaches, bad feeling stomach. Now I have a bit of balance and headaches, feel sickly sometimes and get metal tastes in the mouth and tingling at times in my hands and feet.
I believe I now have a poisoned central nervous system, which will degenerate until death. Isocyanate is a neurotoxin and that means if it gets into your liver and turned to bile it most likely will get reabsorbed back by the nerves in your small intestines. So even the smallest exposure will pump some into your nervous system. Tolulene is also nearly as bad, so also watch out using thinners.

My advise is don't use ANY 2 PART PAINT SYSTEM at home, get a professional who also is oblivious to neurotoxins and thinks HSE limits wont effect his health to paint it for you.
All the exposure limits are based on sensitization of the respiratory system, and very little has been tested for neurotoxins (I wonder why). Isocyantes are in nearly all polymer structures, spray foam etc, even carpets have been known to poison babies. If these structures burn or are mixed incorrect when foamed they can give off isocyanates.

Organic filters don't always work

WARNING - One over exposure can kill

Please sticky this as it's very important


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:56 am 
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Sounds ghastly, hope it doesn't debilitate you too much.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:40 pm 
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Oh heck, sorry to hear that :(

Isocyanates can also be absorbed through the skin.

Very nasty stuff. Definitely a good idea to sticky this thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Bugger! I hope things go OK for you.
I can't believe people who should know better are still dishing out that sort of advice.

GirlySaabFan wrote:
Definitely a good idea to sticky this thread.

A similar thread was stickied a couple of years ago on my other favourite forum:
2K Safety - Leason learnt
Please ignore my first incredulous post on that thread - I sort of half-believed it was a wind-up. Since then, I realise that daft advice about precautions with 2K is rife.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Not good. It's similar with asbestos - everyone knows its bad for you but people (understandably) get complacent because you can't see the fibres and it's not an instant effect.

Heed the warnings people - be careful and be safe.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:17 pm 
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You cannot absorb Isocyanates through the skin or eyes. Only air-fed filters are fully effective against them, as the OP states, organic filters are not effective against them.
Exposure by inhalation can cause asthma, and skin contact can cause dermatitis. Not cancer, or anything else.
Don't take my word for it (I am a SMART repairer) read the Health and Safety Executive guidance on it - http://www.hse.gov.uk/mvr/bodyshop/isocyanates.htm


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Sorry to hear about that. that stuff is not to be messed with that's for sure.


Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:24 am 
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Car Model: 900T16s, Daihatsu Charade GTti
Have hear of 2packs, in fact that's the main thing I hear about them, they obviously give a good finish but for me even before reading this decided it's cellulose all the way and put up with the poorer finish or get a paint shop to do it.
Real sorry to hear this but even if 1 person heeds what is said here then I hope there can be some comfort brought by it


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:33 pm 
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Toe wrote:
cellulose all the way and put up with the poorer finish

There are other 1K products now and cellulose is getting hard to get hold of. My current favourite is water-based base-coat with a 1K (acrylic) clear-coat.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:08 pm 
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The thing they don't tell you is that if your body fails to deal with the stuff it goes to the brain and CNS. I don't believe it will detox from there, so I carnt see things getting better, but worse as it damages brain and CNS cells.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Wishing you the best. It's not at all clear from your post that you've actually had any contact with any medical professionals on this issue. I take it that's just an oversight in your post?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:44 pm 
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BillJ wrote:
Toe wrote:
cellulose all the way and put up with the poorer finish

There are other 1K products now and cellulose is getting hard to get hold of. My current favourite is water-based base-coat with a 1K (acrylic) clear-coat.


Hmmm, something I'll have to look into, cheers...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Cellulose and ISO paints are all on the list of paints NOT to use unless there is no other alternative...everything now is either water-based electro-static or Acrylic....cost,risks and environmental controls are making the other paints no longer viable for anyone but specialists.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:56 am 
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Jules_ht wrote:
It's not at all clear from your post that you've actually had any contact with any medical professionals on this issue.

It's true that it isn't clear from the post above. However, he did say a few months ago in this thread that he was undergoing medical tests for the condition.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:04 am 
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I read an article some years ago about 2K paint and the issues around it. Seems strange that it is still available to Joe Public when so many other products that are less harmful to us have been banned?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:09 am 
Thanks for the warning, hope you're not too badly effected.

Can somebody clarify, for thickies like me, what is meant by 1k & 2K paints please?

Will it be obvious what they are when you you buy them?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:09 am 
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Car Model: 2001 9-3 HOT Aero
I have been in paint and body since 1985, I am only too aware of the issues with 2pack paints, I ended up with occupational asthma as a direct result of using this stuff without the correct breathing gear, I now only use fully filtered air fed mask, don't play with this stuff, it can literally kill you.

To clarify, 1k paint is just paint and thinners, it cures by evaporation

2k paint is paint HARDENER. it's a 2 part system, it cures by chemical reaction

If you want to do painting at home, use only 1K paint.

Also you'll find on the tins it will say "FOR PROFESSIONAL USE ONLY" and whatever you do, don't rely on a paint factor telling you a standard particle mask is ok with 2k, it isn't, you should only use air fed breathing gear, fully filtered with a 3 stage filter including a coalesing filter, with the compressor feeding the mask well aaway from the painting area.

One other point regarding Water based, water based paint will only be the basecoat of a clear over base system, it will STILL require a 2k clear over the top of it....don't be fooled into thinking it's all water based.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:04 pm 
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danelectro wrote:
One other point regarding Water based, water based paint will only be the basecoat of a clear over base system, it will STILL require a 2k clear over the top of it

It is true that it needs a clearcoat but this need not be 2K, although the reason 2K is still used despite the hazards is that it performs better than 1K. However, a decent 1K clear is by no means rubbish and can produce good results for the DIYer not equipped to use 2K.

danelectro wrote:
2k paint is paint HARDENER. it's a 2 part system, it cures by chemical reaction

There are also epoxy primers, which are 2-part paints but do not contain isocyanates in the hardener and are perfectly safe to use with no more protection than 1K paints.
Look for "CONTAINS ISOCYANATES" on the hardener container.

And even with 1K and epoxy, use a decent filter mask. The only good thing to breathe is air!

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:37 pm 
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BillJ wrote:
danelectro wrote:
One other point regarding Water based, water based paint will only be the basecoat of a clear over base system, it will STILL require a 2k clear over the top of it

It is true that it needs a clearcoat but this need not be 2K, although the reason 2K is still used despite the hazards is that it performs better than 1K. However, a decent 1K clear is by no means rubbish and can produce good results for the DIYer not equipped to use 2K.


danelectro wrote:
2k paint is paint HARDENER. it's a 2 part system, it cures by chemical reaction

There are also epoxy primers, which are 2-part paints but do not contain isocyanates in the hardener and are perfectly safe to use with no more protection than 1K paints.
Look for "CONTAINS ISOCYANATES" on the hardener container.

And even with 1K and epoxy, use a decent filter mask. The only good thing to breathe is air!


First point, yes that's true.....I was going by what everyone is using these days, as a hardy finish. but yes you can use 1k.

Second point: I think for a newbie, consider ALL 2k paints as lethal and use air fed equipment, then you can't go wrong. this subject can be thrashed about as much as you like, but painting is a dangerous business. and if you don't take the correct precautions you can suffer. As you say the only good thing to breathe is air.

I have seen people who have been advised it's ok to spray 2k with a standard carbon filter mask from a paint factor....man these factors don't use the stuff, how can they possibly advise on safety!!!!

Simple: if in doubt, don't do it.....it ain't worth it......and I know from experience.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Location: Northern Ireland
Car Model: XF 3.0DS PL+ Aero 2.8 XWD Auto
I always work on the basis that if i'm working with something or somewhere new and I smell something odd or being to feel light headed then theres something in the air that isn't good for me and I stop what i'm doing and go get some fresh air whilst the cause is checked out.
This however doesnt always go down well with the bosses but fortunately the law is on my side once I raise the alarm of a potential hazard.
This over the years has resulted in new air handling systems, air fed masks for those who have to work in the area and numerous changes to paint suppliers and equipment and all sorts of safety controls.
I am however lucky that for the last 10 or so years the HSE have tightened the guidelines forcing bosses to address safety issues and I feel for those who have been working in such areas for decades as its only as a result of situations like the posters that I have changed the laws for businesses....downside is private users are often the ones that get the health problems as they don't have access to all the safety equipment.


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