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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:27 pm
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Location: Bristol
Car Model: 234r 9-3, volvo s80, astra
Previous owner of my house FILLED the underneath of the bath with it....
I had to remove the bath bit by bit with an axe

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99 9-3 se sport B234R
2000 9-3 se vert st3
53 Volvo s80 D5
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:34 am
Posts: 70
Location: Tilburg; The Netherlands
Car Model: Saab 9000
These things are indeed nothing to take lighthearted, always use a proper mask yes they can cost quite a bit but it will last you for ever if you take proper care of it then it is just the filter units that need changing now and then, Also always use a proper overall suitable for painting, they are only €20,- incl shipping over here and they will protect you against all those little nasty particles that can be either breathed in or absorbed through the skin.
You only have one body and it should last you a lifetime, don't try to shorten that as there is no warranty on it.

Hope you get to feel somewhat better soon and thanks for reminding us of these issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:31 pm 
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We are coming to the conclusion its brain damage on a cellular level. Not all damage can be shown on an MRI scan, a functional (showing oxygen and blood flow) scan would probably show it up when I am having a bad session. Basically the symptoms are those that you get after a head injury and those symptoms tend to vary and be very slow to repair if at all. The full extents of the injury took about 3 months to get worse and level out, now I will have to be positive and hope there is some recovery over the next few years.

Its pretty much made work hard going, I probably need to sit down and have a think if I need to go part time ideally on flexi time so I can sit out the week and a half of cluster type migraine with dizziness, sickness and loss of cognitive function I get every so often.

Fun it is not!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:09 pm 
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Location: Sunny Scunny
Car Model: Volvo V70 2.4 D SE LUX
You should feel better after around 6 months, I was a professional paint sprayer for 8 years, mainly single pack paints, sometimes the paints were very expensive single pack enamels for show vehicles, but I did use 2k systems and 2k water borne systems which are just as dangerous, I always wore a suit and air fed mask, but even using protective gear, you still have skin contact and still breathe a little in, the body does seem to store the cyanide content and all of a sudden you are ill, very ill for a few weeks, I had this for 6-8 months and at first felt as though I was drugged up and seeing things, it was so bad I packed it all up and gave up paint spraying, but you will get better and start feeling better after a few months if its the same as what I was suffering, anyway I hope it all works out for you, I haven't touched spray paints for 10 years now and feel far better for it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Thanks for that, its something positive. It does seem similar to what I am experiencing, which is its effecting my head and I can relate to the feeling drugged bit. I don't get the problem constantly it usually attacks me for 5-10 days every 1-2 months. Otherwise I am feeling better in-between attacks. I can see why you packed the job in and its pretty worrying that even with the gear you were effected.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:16 pm 
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Car Model: 56 plate 93 1.9 TiD Vector
Sounds awful, hope you are able to live well and be happy without too much impact.

It's always terrible when you hear stories like this and if someone heeds the warning then sharing it here will be worth it.

Stay strong!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:31 pm 
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Car Model: Saab 9-5 aero hot
rallyv4 wrote:
I have managed to poison myself with 2 K paint. I have been spraying 2K on and off for the last ten years. Back then both my Dad and I were told by the guy at the spray shop that if you are painting only the odd time out side you will be ok with a 3m throw away spray mask. I have probably sprayed 6 cars worth over 10 years. The last job I did was paint the boot and floor pans out side on a full stripped shell. It took less than 45min. In the past I have had not even feel ill after painting, no chestiness, cough or anything and I didn't have any problems while spraying, so I never changed my habbit.
24hours later I had the runs and felt sick and dizzy, a bit like the flu. This slowly went after 3 days, but I felt dizzy. 1 month later I had another similar attack, even without any paint exposure and it took 3 weeks for my balance to return. This happened again 1 month later and I had 7 weeks off work, dizziness, balance issues, headaches, bad feeling stomach. Now I have a bit of balance and headaches, feel sickly sometimes and get metal tastes in the mouth and tingling at times in my hands and feet.
I believe I now have a poisoned central nervous system, which will degenerate until death. Isocyanate is a neurotoxin and that means if it gets into your liver and turned to bile it most likely will get reabsorbed back by the nerves in your small intestines. So even the smallest exposure will pump some into your nervous system. Tolulene is also nearly as bad, so also watch out using thinners.

My advise is don't use ANY 2 PART PAINT SYSTEM at home, get a professional who also is oblivious to neurotoxins and thinks HSE limits wont effect his health to paint it for you.
All the exposure limits are based on sensitization of the respiratory system, and very little has been tested for neurotoxins (I wonder why). Isocyantes are in nearly all polymer structures, spray foam etc, even carpets have been known to poison babies. If these structures burn or are mixed incorrect when foamed they can give off isocyanates.

Organic filters don't always work

WARNING - One over exposure can kill

Please sticky this as it's very important


How did you manage to find out it was the paint (ISOCYANATES) that had given you all these symptoms ?

Was there any particular tests etc that made you find about the poison ?

The reason I ask is I have been dizzy and had/have all of the symptoms you mentioned for the last 4 and a half years. Docs have changed diagnosis umpteen times and have now came to the stage to just take each day as it comes and live with it.

I remember the night I fell ill, We had just finished an engine conversion on one of my cars and had to mount the petrol tank in the boot. So all the petrol fumes were lurking in the car as it wasn't ventilated(I was only able to ventilate via drivers window). I have always suspected that this could have been the cause but doctors wouldnt let on.

Cheers
Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:15 pm 
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You carnt diagnose it using tests. The same symptoms seem to be linked to central nervous system damage due to poisoning, stroke, lack of oxygen to brain etc. The level of damage 3 months after poisoning didn't show up on an MRI scan which I had to go to see a neurologist privately off my own back.
GP's in this country appear to have about zero knowledge about poisons and worryingly when I did what the paint said on the tin ie take it to the GP with you they didn't even look and dismissed it as a bug. In most cases there is nothing they could have done, but for certain chemicals there are tests and ways to get it out of your system, but you will have no chance in this country. In countries with venomous snakes etc they do bother to train people and have poison centres. GP's in this country probably had more knowledge 100 years ago about poisons than they do now.
There is a UK toxicology centre in London which was set up in part by a lady that worked for the University of London, I carnt think of her name, but she can probably do a series of tests that could prove cns damage. They are specialist test and your GP wouldn't know what they are and probably wont want to refer you, so it would mean paying privately. The lady in question deal with Organo Phosphate cases in pilots.
Basically at the end of the day I never got a definite diagnosis as there are no normal tests that can show the damage or what the damage actually is. It makes no difference as there is no treatment to cure the problem. The only thing that helps me is migraine treatments, propanadol etc. I know a lady called Nancy Swan in the US that is on epilepsy treatment as this can be used for migraine too.
You wont get any help regards benefits as you can pass all the tests. I have managed 3 months work this year and I did mange about 6 months without pain, but generally I live with at best a headache and worse a migraine every day that can effect movement of legs and hands. I don't know I am ment to work like that, but if you have any ideas...
Things that have helped, exercise! I have come from a rowing background, so I had this idea that sometimes its a tired nervous system that can reduce your performance and you can train that. So I tried with the headaches (not migraine) to do a little exercise, walking when the balance was off, then 10min on an exercise bike. I tried to extend the endurance against my knackered nervous system. I got up to 1 hour in the end and my balance and headaches were minimal issues. I was managing to pump out 150-180 watts over 12min on 12min off 12min on in the end. This got my daily endurance up and I could even do manual work again for a full day without sweating buckets or suddenly loosing all strength. That's were I was for most of this summer and I felt the best I had during the illness.

What not to do! As I have had no help from the health service its been a somewhat bumpy road of trail and error. Stay away from all chemicals!!!!!!! I have set my problems back off with at first carrying on thinking I was getting better and using body filler outside, Spraying 1 can of matt black acrylic paint, and drinking alcohol twice. The first time I set it off was after drinking way too much, the second was after 2 pints and a small glass of champers over an evening meal. So this leaves me ill again at the moment and having to try to do this over again and hoping that I can find a spell of pain free living.
So I would NOT drink alcohol AT ALL and DO NOT use chemicals or breath in fumes AT ALL.

Its no fun, but loads of people suffer illness like this, I just found out one of our rowers had a stroke today and he is only in his mid 30's.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:01 pm 
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Following on from this it has turned out that the reduction in pain has probably in my view been due to the damged cells dying off. This for a period made me feel better as my functions all worked ok to a limit, the limit being decreased endurance (I would suddenly loose strength).
Ever since this happened I had lots of limb twitches when just falling asleep and sleep was harder to obtain and more disturbed. What has happen now (since last Sept 2015) is the loss of feeling tired and the loss of that drowsey feeling. I still manged to sleep on my own until after Feb, when after 4 nights of no sleep I had to be given sleeping tablets. These have kept me going until now, but these are now failing. The doctors who still see this as a mental health issue gave me a strong sedative medication which knocked me out on the first evening. It took it 3 days before it didn't work anymore nd at no point did I ever feel sedated. So I am sure this is actually causing more harm than good. Now I m just managing to sleep on the medication with a sleeping tablet. There must be something in the sleeping tablet other than sedatives, which just about works.
So this is a bit of self prognosis, but if you look at Aerotoxic poisoning cases, methanol poisoning cases, mercury poisoning etc they all nearly follow the same pattern. In all but acute cases the symptoms can arise years later. One case of large scale methanol poisoning showed that even the group that appeared to have no symptoms after the event had 27pc mortality rate 6-7 years later, most died after drinking alcohol.
Now look at Richard Westgates case of toxic poisoning from organophosphates in passenger airlines. There was also another pilot Liz who died of cancer thought to relate to organophosphates. Both had started with feeling tired and fatigued before neurological symptoms started.
A lot of these chemicals can not be measured or detected in to human body. Very few chemicals can be, where millions can not. These chemicals not only interfere with brain function they can cause dna changes and attach to protiens which can cause prion disease.
So my theory is that since isocyante is a voc and drawn to fat and reacts with proteins, it and many many other vos's are the main drivers behind, dementia, parkinsons, cjd, sfi etc but the medical field cant see the cocktail of chemicals that lie stuck for life in a patients head, they are trying cure an unknown. Its known that certain gene types are more susceptible, but a lot of cases of prion disease don't follow that trend.
This is a bit like predicting ones death, but I recon one of three things are happen to me now, 1. the blood brain barrier is damaged due to chemical poisoning and is allowing natural neuro toxins in to damage the brain (this could also be a cause for the above medical conditions too).
2. the chemical is slowly destroying cells and cell connections in the brain, in my case I get pains in the thalamus and brain stem.
3. the chemicals have damaged dna leading to a prion disease, in my case this seems to be sleeping and inline with something like CJD or SFI.

Of course it could be all three.

So what I m saying now with the largest amount of knowledge I have on this subject is stay firmly away from chemicals and food containing chemicals. No they are not safe and we are their human experiment. If I look back at the amount of chemical exposure I have had from the age of 3 building airfix kits with dad, airbrush painting model car shells in my early teens and building cars with dad from 12 onward the exposure is massive. I would now think it best to do a chemical risk assessment on ones daily life. Oh and I never work in the chemical industry, paint industry, military(urainium is used in warheads, turns to dust and you breath it in and eventually you get gulf war syndrome and die) or aircrew (subjected to organophosphates even though warning sensor could be fitted as std to aircraft, but that would tell everyone how high the exposure is and validate the claims of hundreds of staff ill with this terrible condition).

Don't trust the chemical industry!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Location: Portsmouth
Car Model: 96 V4 & Dead 9-3 'vert
I'm glad things seem to be improving for you.

After reading your thread I did several things:
I made sure that my paint supplier only sold me paints without Isocyanates, suitable for use by the home mechanic
I bought a properly fitting mask with vapour filters (not air fed - but the manufacturer of the mask states that the filters should be changed every 50 hours of use and that the air fed version is therefore only worth it if you are working every day with these chemicals to reduce the cost of the replacement filters)
I make sure that when I am painting the area is properly ventilated

I'm also only going to prime my car, and then leave the proper painting to the professionals.

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'02 9-3 Convertible (Dead)
'75 96 V4 Anniversary Restoration Project
'09 9-3 Turbo-X Wagon


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:37 pm 
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No they seemed to, but now I have lost the ability to sleep without tablets and they are having to get stronger and stronger, basically it seems to have damaged my thalamus and is killing me with a kind of fatal insomnia.

looking at the Bhopal people nearly all suffered with lung damage due to the high dose, but I never had that higher dose as it would have caused the same damage. The Bhopals started to suffer neurological damage some over 20yrs on. The only conclusion I can make from this is that the toxin is retained in the body for ever. Some is urinated out as they can test for that. So I recon I had symptoms that were showing the year leading up to the final top up event even though I hadn't sprayed any isocyanate paint for over a year prior and that was only a wing at a time out side.
You then find there is no research papers for long term effects and no further scientific tests/research has been carried out in Bhopal since the late 1990's. I can tell you why, because it would be chuffing obvious that isocyante doesnot comeout of the body and you can build it up in small exposures and it will circulate as a neurotoxin and will probably see you off 30 years later. I bet if we raided the big chemical companies they will have all this evidence kept safe in a box somewhere, just like the have done with other chemicals. I think the CEO that was incharge of DOW chemicals slung his hook to an island with no extradition routes to either the usa or india. Sort of says it all. AS I SAY I WOULD PACT UP PAINTING CARS WITH ISOCYANTES and find a better job.
Also magazines and tv are very bad showing painters only wearing half masks, no gloves etc. loads only use half masks with Iso, hope they don't mind Parkinsons later in life. The reason I got into using it was there were so many home diyers using it the likes Of Practical Classics readers restorations at the time. I had not really come across it before then. Some rubbish advice from the local paint shop (since gone) and saying if you are only doing a bit and its outdoors you will be ok with a celly mask. Vola death will be about 10 years after 3 resprays and a few suspension parts all outside.


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